Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?) (page 8)| Forums BMWauto.net

Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

At the end of last week my 2002 325 wouldn't start. I had it towed into the the local BMW dealer (Boston, US area) today and they tell me that the fuel pump needs to be replaced. They also say they've replaced about 50 fuel pumps in the past week or so and that it's caused by gasoline blends with more than 10% ethanol.

I didn't fill up with E85 and I know that blends are not supposed to exceed 10% ethanol, especially if that's what it says right on the pump. But the dealer thinks that off-brand stations are selling blends with >10% ethanol in order to lower their costs.

I guess that's possible and I'll be probably buy branded gasoline from now on. But if an off-brand station was "cheating" just how much does it take to f*#k up your fuel pump? That I can see this problem happening again and again is both scary and frustrating.

Anyone else heard of this?

Reply » Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

Quote:

First of all, BMW would still have to prove it was the contaminants that caused the damage. And, if they did, then the oil co, gas stations liability should cover it.

When I was in the insurance business I saw a number of damaged engine, fuel pump claims against the oil co's we insured and the co I worked for paid them without incident. Certainly, not thoroughly cleaning a fuel storage tank before switching from a regular fuel to ethanol is gross negligence.

I saw an article in the Ft Worth paper about 10-15 days ago. One of the gas stations was paying for repairs of many cars that fuled at their stations and sustained damage. There was no mention of ethanol and I can't remember the brand of gas.

When ethanol was first introduced to the Dallas area last year, they had a rash of probems.
Ed Wallace was interviewed on TV from a Ford dealership. They showed to the cameras a sampling of fuel taken from cars that were in for repairs. The separation between fuel and water was clearly visible.

Reply » Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

[quote=HugH;2181583]Their argument about using premium gas does not hold water. If they are using an ethanol blend in your area, that ethanol blend goes into each and every pump, no matter what octane or brand![/QUOTE! In the area where I live to the best of my knowledge "Gulf" is the only one that specifies on the punp about 10% ethanol being in there gas. Shell,Exxon Etc. don't have that statement on there pumps.
cheers
vern

Reply » Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

[quote=vern;2184374] Quote:

Their argument about using premium gas does not hold water. If they are using an ethanol blend in your area, that ethanol blend goes into each and every pump, no matter what octane or brand![/QUOTE! In the area where I live to the best of my knowledge "Gulf" is the only one that specifies on the punp about 10% ethanol being in there gas. Shell,Exxon Etc. don't have that statement on there pumps.
cheers
vern

EPA is the one that mandates which area will dispense gas with ethanol, not the gas companies.

Now, it might be that your area is not required to use ethanol in the gas. I do know that the whole metro area (Dallas/Ft Worth) and some adjacent counties are REQUIRED to use 10%ethanol. You'd have to drive quite some way to find an area where ethanol in not required.

The Gulf stations that you mention, do they state that their "Premium" gas does not contain ethanol? What I was saying is if they have ethanol blended in their gas, it will be in all of their gas and not just on selected octains (Premium).

Reply » Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

Hopefully I can clear up a few misconceptions surrounding ethanol blended gasoline:

* EPA mandates Ethanol (10% blend) in areas that are considered high pollution. Based on a number of different factors, areas have dates that they must begin to use ethanol blended gasoline. For example, New York switched over in 2005, and New Jersey switched over in spring of 2006. One note, it is only required in prescribed localities surrounding a metropolitan area, so for example, northwest of Newburgh outside of NYC they still use conventional fuel, while just across the river they use RBOB (ethanol blended). It is also not specific to companies, e.g. Gulf vs. Shell, or grades of gasoline.

* Ethanol actually costs more than gasoline (it varies, but over the last year, this has been true), so no reason for people to "cut" gas with ethanol for savings. This is because there is much more demand for ethanol than there is supply, which looks to be true in the future as well. And since ethanol can't be transported in a pipeline due to it's corrosive nature and afinity for water, it is more expensive to move, and isn't able to utilize the efficient pipeline system.

* In addition, these ethanol areas cause supply headaches, which cause prices to rise everwhere, since it reduces the amount of sources for product (e.g. a conventional gasoline terminal cannot receive RBOB, and therefore when there is a shortage there are no local alternatives for supply)

* Almost all of the problems surrounding ethanol are due to water. Before ethanol, water in the tank was OK, since it settled to the bottom of the tank and gasoline does not mix with water. It only caused a problem when it rose above the intake pipe which sits a few inches above the bottom of the tank. Ethanol, however, absorbs water, so any water in the tank mixes with the ethanol, and if there is enough, causes too much water in the engine. Also, it is a mild corrosive, along with the fact that at low temperatures, it may in fact start to separate.

* At the time of an ethanol conversion, the all of the water will be removed from the stations tanks. Also, station operators are now required to stick for water every day (with a water paste applied to the end of the tank stick). Terminals will begin to convert to RBOB (ethanol blend) over a period of perhaps 1-2 months. On high volume sites, this is done rather easily, but at low volume sites it causes some challenges. All of this is why problems usually occur during periods where areas are switching to ethanol.

For all of these reasons, oil companies HATE ethanol. Tough to source, more expensive than gas, difficult to clean up if it gets into the ground with a spill, much tougher operationally. Add to that the fact that it uses more energy than it produces, reduces gas mileage, and is in short supply, makes it an all around loser. It actually makes MTBE look good (which the EPA also mandated).

My advice would be to frequent a station that maintains high appearance standards, since in my experience they also tend to be the operators who are on top of making sure there is no water in the tank.

Reply » Ethanol killed fuel pump! (?)

Doid23 - Great post that should illuminate those who are still in the dark, thank you!

On top of all of the shortcomings, it's causing an international shortage of corn that's used in the feed lots. Also, it has caused a shortage of corn that we used to export to Mexico. Corn tortilla is the main staple and a valuable source of protein of the poor class and this shortage has caused the price they pay to go sky high. There have been several demonstrations all over Mexico in an effort to get their gov't to freeze the price of corn. I have no doubt that soon we'll see an escalation of the price we pay at the supermarkets for beef, poultry, etc.

Page 8 of 8